"Stop," I tell him immediately. I decline to greet by hugging, I frown stiffly, and I can hear a worn, thin tone snappish in my voice. "I don't want to talk about work," I tell him. I immediately feel bad for being bitchy. He's a nice kid, and he's told me before that bringing up "game stuff" is an easy way for him to start conversation with me, and he's just so enthusiastic he can't help it, no matter how many times I try to change the subject.
A lot of guys I meet feel the same way, whether they want to date me or not. Such a novelty is it for them to discover a neighborhood gal who presumably "plays video games all day" that they seem over the moon to find a girl they can talk about games with. This should make me feel cool. It makes me annoyed.
Yeah, of course I have played [insert new title here]. It's my job. And yes, of course you may come over and play [game that isn't out yet] with me. Just bring me a bottle of gin and have something else to talk about, please. My house is not an arcade. Sometimes when I'm off the clock video games are the last thing I want to look at, think about or talk about.
Does this sound really unfair of me? Am I sometimes over-sensitive to people who are just trying to be nice or share an interest in my field? Probably, but try to understand it really sucks for men to continually make of me a novelty. I don't want to be a novelty. I am not my job.
And I imagine any gal who's an avid gamer even for a hobby, not for a living, has to deal with the same thing, endless barrages of breathless shock from guys that can't believe you exist. And maybe gals for whom it's just a hobby find this flattering. I don't.
You wouldn't ask your friend who's a lawyer for free legal advice every time you see him. You wouldn't ask your friend who's a tax preparer to share his expertise gratis. You wouldn't bug your psychologist friend about your traumatic childhood every time she simply wants to have coffee with you. You pay people for that stuff.
Maybe I should charge people to play video games with me. Maybe I should refuse to talk about them unless I'm being paid. Maybe I should only allow guys at the bar to ask me if God of War III is any good ("yes, awesome." Like, what else can I reply?) after they've bought me a drink.
...Of course I'm not serious. I wouldn't do this if I didn't love it, and while I definitely get impatient at being pigeonholed as some kind of nerd goddess who's about nothing else but video games, I understand I'm a rarity and I hope I can contribute something useful in my perspectives because of that. It does help me bond with new people, since there aren't too many of us gamers out there who "get it".
But I bring it up because so many of you wrote me asking what I think about GameCrush.com, wherein gamers pay for "PlayDates" with real live females. As I said on Twitter, do you really need a girl to tell you it's demeaning and insulting for you to believe it?
It's stupid, but y'know, I get it. In Japan, girls get compensated for any number of things, from chaste dates to having lunch with salarymen while dressed up as maids with rabbit ears. Part of me feels like it's hard enough to be a female gamer in a culture where -- well, where men would pay women to play games with them -- that they might as well make some money at it. I dunno that any amount of money would be worth the heavy breathing the girl's gonna have to sit through when she's playing MW2 with the kind of guy who'd pay women to play games with him.
What if I auctioned off the opportunity to play and discuss the Metal Gear Solid or Silent Hill Series with me at my house? Would you bid on that, let's say, if it were for charity? Would your opinion change if I for some reason needed the money to keep this blog up? What if I just wanted the money for myself? I am quite sure some of you would, because I am quite sure some of you are here because I am a girl generally determined by others to be pretty. Judging by some of the emails and comments I sometimes receive and promptly delete, a few of you are here only for that.
There's a really ugly reality to our landscape, and while I firmly believe it will evolve and improve, I am also pessimistic that that ugly underbelly can ever fully go away. The way I see it, it was only a matter of time before someone found a way to capitalize on it. I'm not, like, full of outrage. It's just dumb, and I didn't even think it really needed addressing.
I will say I can't wait to interview the girls about what it's like, though!
91 comments:
I'm definitely looking forward to those interviews. It just seems like such a strange thing. It would be interesting to know if there's a type of person that pays for time with these girls.
Obviously I'm here just in the vain hope that the Yankees can have another season in which this miss the playoffs and I can rub it in.
Comparing an auction or such by you is a little different given that you do have a certain level of fame. Not you know fame, fame more along the likes of an NPR radio host fame. And they auction off dinners with them all the time because its to spend time with them and not just someone you have a 45kb picture of.
What is so weird about this is that most multiplayer games are antagonistic in nature. Which brings up a question you need ask, do the guys who buy this service feel the need to win or the need to lose?
Yeah. Are the kind of guys who'd pay a woman to play video games with them likely to be good sports? What if the girl is better than them?
It opens the door for lots of tacky misogyny.
Maybe its the quality of conversation you have outside of work that is the issue. I have worked in an around the film industry for years and while it is our job, the minutiae of our work doesn't get in the way of our passion for the dicussing the work. I can see how gamer bravado could get annoying quick tho'.
My little 'quirk' doesn't quite compare to the sexually-charged engine that drives girls (who by nature spend their time sorting through guys anyway) to become treasure chests for so many gaming guys.
However, I can summon up some slight amount of empathy here for the number of people I have to be even more of an ass with. This is mainly due to the similarity of how they're drawn to me because I'm a black dude who would rather sit in his room playing Pokemon all day as opposed to being out putting up with other people's crap.
At least nobody can make an affirmative action Gaming/MySpace site....I think.
Darvin -- yeah! I love to talk about video games with friends at, say, GDC. I have very smart friends to whom I love to try to introduce some of the finer nuances of games I enjoy.
But convos that basically go:
Him: "Have you played [AAA title 1]?"
Me: "Yeah."
Him: "Is it cool?"
Me: "Yeah."
Him: "What about [AAA title 2]?"
Me: "Yeah."
Him. "How's that one?"
Me: "It's okay."
Him: "Cool, cool."
Yeah, no, fucking kill me, please.
We have what is widely regarded as the best job on the planet, and I love talking games whether or not I'm working on an article, enjoying free time, or working at my other job.
The downside to it is that anybody who knows anybody who does what we do is going to want and talk about games with us. It isn't a job to them, it's video games to them.
It's like when we were kids and looking at an astronaut or something and saying, "Fly around in space? That sounds awesome."
It sounds like you've just been viewed as a one-dimensional conversation piece for too long. Like Darvin said, its the quality of the conversation. An opening gambit of "I beat HALOZ!" is probably a far worse strategy than "What did you make to the relationship dynamic in Mass Effect 2?"
Maybe that's why actors date other actors, so they dont have to deal with 24 hours a day of "OMG, you're teh actor!" from someone who fell in love with them because of their job.
I wouldn't take it personally, it comes across a little like you're into games as "just a job" and dont want to bring it up outside of work hours, which clearly isn't the case. Maybe its just that you want to discuss games on your own terms, not forced down your throat when wanting to do other things?
Either way, I've no real opinion on GameCrush. Marketeers and enterprising businessmen will always use the "novelty" of women in games to sell a product for as long as there are low self esteemed boys who play them willing to pay for it.
Let's say, hypothetically speaking, I met you in person and wanted to strike up a conversation, whether it's for platonic, romantic, or any other purpose. Given no other ideas or information, the very first thing I'd spring to as a topic of conversation would indeed be video games; it's something on which you and I would connect, and a good potential segue to other topics. But you knew that already.
As a consequence of my social situation, I know quite a few female gamers (one of whom I'm dating), so there really is little to no novelty at all to the notion of women who (quite coincidentally) play games. I've heard enough stories from you and others to know I'm an uncommon case. That said, I certainly wouldn't fault a man for trying to strike a conversation about video games; if he doesn't get the hint that that's not all you are as a person, and refuses to move on to different topics, that's where I'd get annoyed.
As far as the mouth-breathers who just drool, jaws agape, and refuse to acknowledge you as a living, breathing human with (gasp!) real interests and personality, or get into dick-waving contests about how awesome they are, they can pretty much just get bent.
it's truly a pity that this is the kind of world we live it. as a guy, I'd honestly say that a 'gamer girl' as some would say is considered pretty hot because it's rare, whereas guys who game are lame because people say they're nerds. it's a matter of perception and stereotypism really, if that's even a word.
It's too bad that you're pigeonholed. It seems like it would lead to a lot of unnecessary frustration and grief by people who don't "get it".
Cut a guy some slack if it's the first time he's met you and he doesn't know that you don't like to talk shop in off-hours. It's hard enough to chat up a lady and maybe he's trying to start with some common ground. Then again, the annoying "is this game cool" conversations seem to be just that: annoying.
In any case, I'll be sure to talk about music if I ever meet you in person. I might also start with how much I hate the Yankees.
I really liked this post, it felt personal. It sounds like your problem isn't so much with people scrambling for common ground in conversations, but rather that they confuse their preconceived concept of you (GIRL GAMER!) with who you actually are. I guess this happens to all of us -- "you are a student/business man/air hostess/terrorist and so I know what you are like" -- though it must get worse the more famous you become. I imagine it would be close to impossible to meet someone like Britney Spears and see them as a living being in front of you, free of the concepts you have formed of them.
I suppose I'm saying be thankful the image people have of you is still largely created by you, rather than tabloid writers and gossip magazines. GIRL GAMER is fairy demeaning, but at least it's not SCHIZO POPSTAR or TALENTLESS SLUT.
Anyway, thanks for a good article.
Sadly enough, I get asked for free legal advice when people find out I'm only a graduated law student! It does get annoying, but thankfully being married changes that somehow? I don't know. I've noticed within my husband's circle of guy friends, they don't bring up this topic with me.
I would assume women sportcasters have the same issues with guys wandering up and opening with "hey how about that game?" or something stupid. I always like to open with "Hey you are so hot" or "Hey can I buy you a car?"-that way I can get over the rejection more quickly
You wouldn't ask your friend who's a lawyer for free legal advice every time you see him. [...] You pay people for that stuff.
No, perhaps not, but I would ask someone I know that's a Dr. what s/he thinks of the Health Care Reform Bill/Law.
I certainly heat what you're saying, and I can empathize. I'm not my job either. But, I don't work in a field as popular or exciting as video game journalism, and I'm asked about my job and opinions related to my field on a weekly basis outside of work on a weekly basis, by friends, family, etc., etc.
It's just part of life. I'd dare say it happens to everyone.
I understand that there's a lot more going on here than that -- I do. I'm not a girl in a male-dominated field, so I can try to sympathize, but I ultimately won't understand your perspective completely. That said, I think it's perfectly normal for people who love video games to be interested in your opinions of video games if/when they meet you, you know?
I certainly don't mean to downplay the "pigeonholing" you've experienced or the misogyny you've encountered. I do want to say that I think it's quite normal for people to be interested in you because of what you do. I'm sure there are plenty of days when I'd be frustrated by that, too. But I think it's important to remember that this happens to almost everyone, to some degree or another.
If I were to ever meet you, I wouldn't try to pick you up. I'm married :) But I'd also like to think that I'd remember that you're another human being, one who isn't defined completely by her work and career interests and would interact with you as such.
Love the blog! Don't comment much, but I do read most everything you publish. I wanted to try to reassure you that you're not the only one who feels pigeonholed by others. Hope I succeeded at least a little.
"You wouldn't ask your friend who's a lawyer for free legal advice every time you see him. You wouldn't ask your friend who's a tax preparer to share his expertise gratis."
You wouldn't ask your friend who's an auto mechanic to help diagnose a problem to decide if you need to put it in the shop. You wouldn't ask someone who works with computers to help you with your Windows problems. Oh wait, you would. Well, maybe not you, but people in general absolutely would. I can speak to the second one extensively.
Yeah, I think you're being over-sensitive here. You may be making assumptions that aren't necessarily valid.
I didn't really start thinking about game writing until Kotaku started posting these really long "think" pieces (is that a terrible term? sorry) a few years ago. I started watching out for them, hoping to find more insights I hadn't thought of before. Turns out those long pieces were yours and that's how I came to start following your work.
I guess the "omg she's a girl" thing didn't have the same impact for me once I figured it out. It was more of a "well, that might contribute to why the perspectives in these long articles have felt fresh."
Though it was cool to bump into you at the bar at GDC and say "hey. i follow your work." Just like it would be cool to bump into a dev or anyone else I know of only from online experiences.
It's always cool to meet people who have gotten something out of my articles. I love putting faces on the people that I do this for.
...Er, for whom I do this ^_^
You definitely need to find someone who isn't interested in games AT ALL then or maybe someone in your field of work that feels the same way about games as a job. Your comparisons to the lawyer, tax preparer & psychologist are really not realistic because your job is something that other people do for FUN. No one is a lawyer, tax preparer or psychologist for fun in their off time.
I play games and I work with games. I don't particularly mind people asking me about games I've played because I quite like discussing them.
I have met guys who are a little surprised that I play Left 4 Dead or Fallout 3 instead of Viva Pinata but they usually get over my femaleness pretty fast.
There is one sort of guy who asks me about games that I don't like. The one who automatically assumes that I must be lying about enjoying games or that I must at least be really terrible. The dude that thinks he has a thing or two he can teach me! Or the dude who wants a "gamer girlfriend" but not one that is actually better than him. Those are the ones who get pretty upset when they lose to me at Street Fighter. But I can generally spot those guys quite fast and they are few and far between. They're just dinosaurs the world is leaving behind!
Oh the whole, I love people (men and women) to ask me about games as long as we don't have to talk about it forever!
I have this horrible image of the "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" guy renting some poor girl's time just to shout that in their face every time they kill them in a deathmatch.
I am kinda curious about the whole idea though. Don't get me wrong, I don't ever want to hire someone to play with me (ahem). One of the best things about gaming is finding someone who wants to play! But I'm interested in how well this will take off. Can't guys just play online? Sure, I know there are no girls online, but still, there are other, like minded people there for that kinda thing. So the girl-slant must be just for the girl side of things, right? Companionship of a female?
So it's gamer-escorts, isn't it?
I can certainly understand the lame pick-ups that come with being a good-looking girl in general, much less a good-looking girl in a field that attracts a lot of attention from stupid boys.
However, in line with what some other commenters said: do your male colleagues frequently find that people want to use games as a topic of conversation when "talking shop" is the last thing they want to do on their off-hours, too?
What I'm saying is, you might have two valid but unrelated problems.
I don't think you're being over sensitive at all.
While I'll agree with some of the comments suggesting that maybe guys open a conversation with you about games because they're trying to find a common topic, I don't think it's too much to ask that they also realise you have other interests.
You are not your job and, while I have no doubt that you have a passion for games, i'm not going to consider you any less enthusiastic simply because you want to talk about other things. It seems we're all defined by what we do. My partner found the interim between her MA and her current writing course very uncomfortable because to everyone else she wasn't 'doing' anything. Whether they mean to or not, people automatically associate you with a context. I'll admit i've become the 'go to guy' in my family for computer issues, but that doesn't mean that's all they communicate with me about. Luckily, they appreciate my interests are much more diverse.
Well, I can't attest to the way you look since I haven't yet seen a picture, but everyone is beautiful in their own way. I'm sure you're a very pretty lady, but that's not why I visit your blog - and I hate to think that's why some do - I ended up here by chance, coming in around 5/6 posts ago, and I immediately enjoyed your writing style and the questions you raise.
I want to hear your thoughts on the games you play, or anything else you may wish to talk about, games-related or not, because I think you are an interesting person worth getting to know, rather than some token female, only there to titillate immature males.
That's my biggest gripe with games, despite the call to have them taken seriously, and the genuinely important issues that are raised in game theory, and even the resurgence of feminism itself, games are still susceptible to the same sexism and stereotypes which pervade society. It shouldn't matter if a gamer is male or female - and would we even make an issue of it if the author of a blog was anonymous? - but unfortunately there are still people out there holding the same prejudices.
I can't understand what they're trying to do with GameCrush. While I don't have a problem with match-making services in general, since i've known people who've found them useful, the narrow focus of a match-making service for gamers surely undermines any hope of establishing a proper relationship with whomever you meet. If all you're looking for is someone who likes games, what do you expect to talk about in other areas?
This was a really good post and I hope putting it out there has been cathartic. Whether you intended it or not, you've touched on a really important issue - the objectification of women in the games industry - that's worth discussing.
Thank you.
Regarding GameCrush - I'll be curious to see what type of people actually sign up, either to be a GameCrush Girl or to pay for their services.
I just... the only frame of reference for something like this is phone-sex, but playing online games together strikes me as a different proposition. Like, will the girls actually compete? And as you ask, would the clients, whoever they wind up being, actually want that?
I guess we'll see. Or actually, it's probably just as likely that the site'll just sort of peter out, and we won't. But regardless of the outcome, if you do do some interviews, I will totally read them.
I know what you need:
a Big Blue Button that says
"DON'T Ask me about Loom!"
Oh man. People can ask me about LOOM any time.
I'm sending you an invoice for those Bio2 questions you hit me up with at GDC.
Thought-provoking article which I've come to expect from you whenever you choose to dig deep into something.
I totally understand not wanting to always talk "work" when you're not at work. I'm in non-gaming software development, and male, and old, so I seldom have to worry about random women wanting to talk to me about what I do for a living :) However, I do sometimes run across other software developers outside of work who want to talk "shop."
As you've mentioned, sometimes those interactions are welcomed. If I'm at some kind of conference those kinds of interactions are quite normal. Sometimes I'm even open to a good geek conversation with someone. However, most of the time when I'm not at the office, I really don't want to discuss the really cool features you discovered playing with the Beta release of Windows 7. I'd rather be discussing sports, music, or (in my case) games. Added to your trials, you are something of a celebrity in a media that I believe is trying, at times, to use celebrity to market its product.
Then, of course, there's the fact that men really don't feel like they understand women and are always desperate to find some common ground on which to start a conversation, and you are versed in a subject that feels "comfortable." They may not even be hitting on you all the time, they may just be jumping at the chance to hold a conversation on a topic where they feel they can without feeling totally lost.
Oh, and I think you're wrong about people's willingness to abuse relationships to get free advice. There's a person where I work who works for H&R Block part-time during the tax season. I'm amazed at the number of tax questions he gets asked while at work. Maybe all of those people are having him do their taxes, but I tend to doubt it.
Anyway, I don't think you're out of line at all to want to limit the amount of time you'll devote to talking "work." I think you should probably expect questions, but you should also expect to be able to say "I don't want to talk about work right now", and that response should generate an understanding nod from the person who asked (although I'm not naive even to believe that will actually happen all the time).
@Steve Gaynor I'd pay you for that because it was fun.
Great article. It sucks being "The [Media] Guy/Girl." Even moreso when being that person is inherently a novelty and regarding something most people take rather lightly.
I write freelance for a (relatively) big website, and when I tell people this (and my aspirations for graduate degrees in ethnomusicology), I instantly get labeled as "The Music Guy," which means endlessly dealing with people having me watch youtube videos of a capella groups and young kids shredding on guitars. It's hard, because I want to be polite and encourage people to find things they like in something I love, but I also have much better things to do with my time. I still haven't been as direct as you (a number of the people showing me videos are my co-workers), but I think I've lost my ability to feign interest.
Definitely looking forward to those GameCrush interviews, though I wonder how much you'll be able to get out of them that aren't just prepared PR lines. Best of luck.
Thanks for an interesting post!
I think the thing that makes SVGL/you as a writer interesting to me is not only that you play games, but that you're actually able to say something interesting (and sometimes unique) about them afterwards. That's rare with both women and men, and as such, if we ever met, it would be a natural topic regardless of your gender. Other obvious ways to open the conversation would be whatever else you choose to share on your Twitter.
However; if you really dislike this kind of geek attention, I have to ask why you present your work on a blog of this particular name. It's great PR (that is, it sells), but I'd say those kind of interactions kind of follow when you go for that kind of branding.
Haha.
I am a young attorney and I just need to say most girls I meet in bars/clubs try and start some sort of discussion with me involving the law once they ask what I do.
Just a simple way for someone to connect with you who doesn't know how else to do it. Simple conversation seems to elude them.
Good post though.
Knowing someone that has played some awesome games pre-release can be an exciting thing regardless of sex, gender identity, etc.! For a journalist that does it for a job, it can be tiring answering so many shallow questions about work, but for nerds, it's an awesome thing to talk about!
But still, I see your point. I'm sure there are a bunch of bozos out there who see a female gamer's interest in games as some add-on to their attractiveness.
My wife is a gamer. She sat in line to get MGS4 at midnight while I was at school, and she got a few creepy responses to her interest in gaming. From our perspective, our gaming interest is just another thing we have in common and do together. It's a part of the relationship, not part of the attraction.
This is why I first thought that GameCrush might be some innocuous way to make someone's day - if only dates with guys were included in the service, and the stupid "flirty" and "dirty" options weren't there.
But sure enough, I immediately thought of the problems that plague somewhat anonymous social networking, and immediately thought it was a bad idea.
As a gamer and a man who considerably improved his success with women by starting with pick-up, working my way to full self-esteem overhaul, the situation (at least as a practical matter) is pretty cut-and-dry to me.
We can ruminate over the more complex socio-cultural nuances and romanticize our expectations of mature social interaction ... but the simple fact of the matter is that the average modern man struggles with women, in contrast to our fairer sex being perceived as "holding all the cards."
Add this condition to some emotionally stunted male gamers and the unattractive behavior is even FURTHER MAGNIFIED. How embarrassing. :-(
As for GameCrush.com, I don't see what it has to offer me. If I wish to meet women who are really into gaming -- for free -- I'll simply traverse the usual, no-brainer channels: Game stores, comic conventions, computer labs, websites, etc.
As a matter of fact, it smacks to me of sex service without the happy ending; what a waste of money. If I just want to get my rocks off and I'm not in the mood to make the experience mutually satisfying for my partner, I'll hire a call girl and be done with it.
Someone here mentioned the difficulty of starting conversations. Approaches are small potatoes. I've done and seen so many different methods of initiating an interaction with a girl, from a simple "Hi" to comically checking out her ass.
If a 5-foot-6 featherweight like me can regularly kick things off with my trademark audaciousness and blunt honesty, surely some video game-loving guy out there can chat Leigh up with ANYTHING other than the lame, "So have you played [insert game here]?"
Everything usually works out if you're being consistent with your true personality and not putting up a front.
Gotta run!
And Leigh, it was cool meeting you at the NYU panel. It seems those shoes did grant you a few inches in stature (lol). But honestly, I don't know how you women walk around in those painful-looking things.
I'm writing a PhD on videogames and my fiancee is also a gamer. I think we could get along just fine! I am not desperate for or surprised by females gamers, and I'm supposed to be able to bring up finer nuances--otherwise I'm wasting my university's money to sit around playing games most days.
I bet you could fill up a whole book on the kinds of strange things people demand from an intelligent-girl-who-also-plays-games-for-a-living. And I bet it would make for some very interesting reading.
Unfortunately your identity is already out there, otherwise you could spin it off.....something like Secret Diary of a Video Game Review Girl.
I like to imagine a bizarro world where guys would walk up and ask you about say "Shadow of the Colossus" or "Rule of Rose" on a daily basis.
As on the whole Gamer Crush thing, it sounds like lonely nerd prostitution and definitely rubs me the wrong way (no pun intended). Obviously it will feed off the socially awkward types in a way that might do much more harm than good.
I'm not a fan of the "OH YOUR A GIRL AND YOU GAME!? LOLWHAT?" responses I've seen many times. I have also witnessed situations in which some gamer girls pull a "HI GUYS! I'M A GIRL SO DON'T THINK I'LL PLAY ANY DIFFERENT! LOL!" and they'll keep repeating this statement ad nauseam.
I thank the developer gods creating the "Mute" button every time both situations occur. But, I digress...
Gamer Guys need to realize when they meet a fellow Gamer Girl that there is plenty more to a person than just gaming, no matter what sex (or race. Got to stay pc here).
I haven't read all of the 38 other posts that have been written at this point. Taking for granted that most of the dudes on here have personally stated their personal interactions with a female gamer they would find attractive or at least interesting because of the “rarity”. However I didn't see any comments while I was skimming over posts that addressed the ancient ritual of male bonding over an activity.
Truth be told most guys would find any relationship (male or female) more intimate if they are shared a hobby of sorts that they have in common with someone else. Why wouldn't that not cross over into their relationships with women? Most men find their
intimate encounters based in concrete shit they can talk all night about (though it certainly doesn't save their personality if they cannot talk about anything else).
Let me give my own personal example that's not related to gaming though I love me some Halo, GoW2, and Borderlands. I'm an avid camper, passionate outdoorsy type of a guy much more than I'm a gamer. And I would love it if my current significant other would have the same interest in kayaking, wild animals, walking through the woods or anything remotely involved with nature. However, her idea of camping is room service in a hotel. Of course to overcome this I’ve found other reasons to connect with her on some other level.
She will never connect with me the way that I feel when I’m communing with nature in my kayak, say in the Chesapeake Bay. But when she's making me dinner or showing interest in watching Avatar (cause face it guys, it really was a 3-D chick flick) then I know that things are going to be OK.
So really, I don't think that it's that much different for guys to bond with someone who may be of the opposite sex who share a passion for video gaming. Guys get all giddy because they want to express that part of themselves that they really care about and connect to someone else on the same level (but of course they shouldn't get stuck talking about how awesome GOWIII looks all night long).
I can relate to this somewhat, in the sense that I don't like it when people I meet socially find out I do programming or tech support, because then they start a conversation with me through some variation of "So my computer has this problem...", and I'm pressured to help them "off the books."
People generally approach other people by bringing up the things they already know about them. If all a guy knows about a girl is her physical appearance, he might talk to her about that. If he knows she has X job, he might ask about that. If she has X job and it has something in common with him, then he will almost definitely talk about that. The quality of the encounter beyond that depends on how pleasant or obnoxious he is.
Knowing that doesn't make these types of situations any less annoying, and only those considerate enough to understand would probably even take this kind of criticism without being insulted or otherwise put off. Therefore, there is no real way to eliminate the problem of obnoxious people starting conversations like this, because for many this is how social interaction works--it's based on self-interest and forging in-roads through any available path.
Not having terribly good social skills myself, I tend to stay within circles of people who agree with my interests, people who I know not to bother with my interests, or people who share enough of my bad social habits that none of us notice. Even that doesn't prevent the occasional awkward moment (a girl launched into an excited one-sided conversation about Batman with me the other day, just because I wore a Batman hoodie), but since I don't really socialise outside of work it doesn't happen that often.
Then again, you may want a social life, so that probably doesn't count as good advice.
@Steve -
Stuff like that is perfectly fine for a first conversation, or at least an icebreaker if it's a common interest, but to be viewed largely as a one-dimensional person because of your profession / main interest is both a little insulting and a lot annoying. Moreso, I'm sure, when it's notable as much because you're a novelty (i.e. not the kind of person one would expect to have that hobby) in your field.
+1 it matters very much whether these conversations happen by mutual choice. Talking about anything (vocation or avocation) palls a bit when someone seems to think that I am the topic and that that's the only thing I find interesting.
I kind of want to know how many people who buy this service want the rented person to sit quietly in the background and not really compete. :/
I can't imagine any legitimate reason a guy would want to use the GameCrush service.
I imagine three main parties would be interested:
1) Truly lonely people who think they're going to forge worthwhile relationships with someone they hire. This makes me sad and it probably reflects poorly on society in general.
2) Guys who want to jerk off and pretend it's not about jerking off because it's actually about Halo. This is probably the main audience. I wonder if this kind of stuff will be encouraged by the girls who work for this service.
3) Guys who want to fulfill some dominance fantasy... even in the twice-removed-from-reality arena of a GameCrush "date".
None of these groups is doing anything healthy with such a service. I think the success of this service is dependant on whether it maintains the illusion of being about games. As soon as word spreads that it's essentially a sex line you know that nerd guys aren't going to risk it.
------------------
As for the issue of guys asking innane questions about games I think that happens no matter the topic.
I started working at a new place recently. The first fact people learned about me is that I "like music" (as general as that is). Ofcourse this results in everyone who has nothing better to say asking me if I like specific bands.
It's just a way of trying to relate so I try not to get offended when they ask me if I like The Beatles or whatever other generic question they've got. Usually I just try and push the conversation into a more interesting area.
Obviously I don't know the people you talk about in the first paragraph personally, but I've got to ask, are you sure you're not making this into a gender issue when it really isn't one?
I mean, these people seem to be dedicated gamers. Maybe they just don't get the chance to chat about their hobby all that often. Or maybe it's the fact that you're a paid games journalist that gets them over-excited. "OMG you write for Kotaku?!?!" might not be much less annoying than "OMG you're a girl what plays games?!?!", but still.
I dunno, maybe my experience is unique, but I know enough girls who are into games that whatever novelty it might have had wore off sometime around middle school, so all else being equal I'm inclined to try to find a different explanation for what's going on here.
You think you got it bad? You should try being a guy who likes dick and shoes!
That's all the girls ever want to talk to me about.
That gamecrush thing makes me sad. That exists only to take advantage of the desperate and/or socially inept.
I would think that when people first meet you that they would ask the obligatory "What is that like?" type questions. If you were an astronaut, fighter pilot, professional athlete or actor you would still get the same kind of questions. Most people don't run into folks like that everyday. That being said, I feel for you when your conversations never move beyond that. I would think that as people get to know you, they would recognize that you are more than your job/hobby/politics etc.
Come again? Your hobby and work, pretty much the sense of your life, and you don't want to talk about it in private conversations? You compare playing a game with someone to lawyer giving free law advice?
Weird.
I mean, yea, if asking about games is just a thinly veiled attempt to hit on you with no substance at all ("You played this? Uhm. Well, cool.") then it is not the games that are the problem, but people you are talking to.
I could have interesting conversations on games with non-gamers, including my 90+ old grandpa. I have told the stories of some games as if they were books or movies to non-gaming girls and they were fascinated. My beautiful girlfriend and life partner is an occasional gamer (Morrowind, Tekken, PSP stuff) and we have talked about games before we dated... and we still do.
Just avoid drooling male simpletons, no matter what topic they used as an excuse. And cheer up, emo kid!
I'm so glad Robert compared you to an NPR host, that's awesome! You should go on "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" so they could ask you questions about a topic that has nothing to do with gaming.
@Cunzy11 - lol, good one.
Says the girl who named her blog 'Sexy Videogameland.' Lol.
This article is a trainwreck. How about you use basic socialization to solve this perceived problem (I'm not a bitch, everyone else is too stupid to know what I want to talk about!) instead of reaching for pity with an anecdote that lacks any semblance of those things that make stories interesting.
You hate gamers who only want to talk about games. This reader hates basket case bloggers who only want to complain about everyone else.
What exactly are you complaining about? Is it the sexual superficiality of a large minority of males? Are you frustrated at the willingness of the games industry to capitalize on men's attraction to women? How many questions do I need to make the irony obvious?
The tl;dr of it is as follows. Grow up, man. We all have these problems and it aint a fucking conspiracy.
Perhaps, instead of being sick over discussing work, what you really want is for someone to ask you a deeper question than how cool a new game is?
I get burnt out very quickly if the only thing a person wants to talk about is how "cool" MW2 is, instead of the cautionary message about revenge and first strike mentalities. Now the buzz is about how amazing FFXIII looks, when I'd much rather discuss the Squall's Dead theory of FFVIII. I didn't even like FFVIII, but the theory adds a fascinating new layer to an old game!
And I'll admit that the last girl I met who was pretty and, on her own, brought up how incredible Arkham Asylum was made my breath catch in my throat, but I see that as a piece of their personality, not the defining trait.
When I hang out with a girl, even one that's interested in or loves game, I usually want to go outside or see a concert or hang out in a coffee shop. Something where we can actually talk, you know?
@pyrrhus
Man, you're sort of frighteningly aggressive here. If you really can't understand what's frustrating about being reduced to one dimension and only engaged on that level, then I don't know what to say to help you.
Now, I don't consider myself a gamer, even though I play video games daily and love reading about them. Maybe people who do call themselves gamers can't discuss anything else. If that's true, then I feel sorry for them, but I feel more sorry for the people who have to hear endless discussions about whether video games are art and attempts to justify what most people see as a puerile hobby with equally juvenile reasons.
One topic is not enough for a casual, social conversation, simple as that, and when that's all people are willing to offer, its hard not to feel like they're wasting your time.
"Maybe people who do call themselves gamers can't discuss anything else."
This is not the case.
"One topic is not enough for a casual, social conversation..."
True enough.
"...when that's all people are willing to offer"
No one is actually this way, except idiots who we'd all do better to avoid association with, and (more likely) the crowd as seen by someone so one-dimensional themselves that they are unable to meaningfully engage on the myriad other topics that everyone thinks about.
@pyrrhus
I was being pretty facetious with that first comment, thought that was obvious.
There are most definitely people who will find one topic to discuss with someone and use it as a go-to for conversation ad nauseum. There comes a point where you need to find out more about someone so you don't start every conversation with the same topic. And if you're the person who is mostly initiating the conversation, that burden falls on you.
Oh boo hoo. After making a name for yourself as a videogame journalist, you get annoyed when people dare talk to you about them?
You're not your job, but it is a part of you, especially since you have a cool job. What the hell else is someone who doesn't know you personally supposed to use as an icebreaker?
Just, y'know, change the subject, instead of using the hapless meathead of the moment as a symbol of what you hate about game culture.
Leigh, you make some totally valid points about not wanting to "talk shop" outside of work. I have to imagine people in a lot of professions have to deal with this as well. I remember seeing that not-so-good fireman movie "Ladder 49" and being so turned off by their benign barroom chatter also about fighting fires! Gotta take a break from that stuff sometimes.
I wonder how much being a minor celebrity plays into your situation. I think if someone recognizes you because of your work, there is a strange urge to go up and say something. However, these are often gut reactions where people say things without really thinking about what they want to say, but regardless they will have the satisfaction of having spoken to x-celebrity or y-expert.
I could have totally said something to Roger Ebert a few years ago at Sundance, waiting to get into a screening, but off the top of my head, what would have been worth bringing up? If I'd have remembered a contentious subject from a recent review of his, maybe, but I didn't have that. My feeling is that if someone's going to approach a stranger, they should do it with a worthwhile purpose in mind (not only to fulfill a selfish desire) and know how to be empathetic and talk to people to achieve that goal. Otherwise the conversation could just waste everyone's time.
I can understand where you're coming from, Leigh, but try not to be too harsh with these guys you meet. The fact is, you are a bit of a rarity, and so the natural male reaction will probably be one of surprise and fascination. I can see it being quite irritating after a while, but it's not exactly their fault, either.
I didn't read through *all* of the comments, I'll admit, so I apologize if someone has already brought this up.
I read an article a while ago someplace that was talking about much this same thing-- how it felt to be a girl gamer surrounded by men. Hell, for all I know, it might have even been one of your articles, I'm not sure. It was years ago, and I don't remember.
What I do remember was this: that the end result of the article was the statement that hey, as a girl, I don't play video games to pick up men. I don't play video games to have something to talk about with men. I don't play video games for any other reason than because I like playing video games. And that really struck a chord with me.
I am only basing this statement on my own, personal life experience and the experiences of my fellow girl gamers that I've talked to-- this may not be universal and is not intended to be. But it seems like, to me, being a gaming girl is kind of... fetishized by a lot of guys, as though you're playing games in order to be sexy, the same way you would, say, wear high heels or something.
I think it's cool for someone to talk video games with you if that's what you have in common, or just in a casual setting. But if there's something more romantic going on, then they damn well better be able to talk about something else. I, for one, have a million other hobbies and interests, and to only talk about one is an insult to me, if you're my SO or wanting to be. On the other hand, if we're just chatting while you make me my latte (or vice versa) then whatever, it beats the normal small talk!
So, um, read any good books lately? ;)
(I certainly have. Terry Pratchett's "embuggerance" hasn't slowed him down one bit!)
Incidentally, I played through The Secret of Monkey Island Special Edition not too long ago, so I know what the "blue button" refers to.
Also incidentally, The Company of Myself is a real gem of an indie flash game. I don't want to spoil the ending though, so I won't say any more...
All I have to say about this ridiculous blogger can be summed up in this article:
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/cocksucking_videogameland/
Geez, Leigh. You know I think you're swell, right? But there's hardly anything more obnoxious than a writer complaining about how people always want to talk to him about what he's writing about. If Frank Rich used the first half of one of his columns to whine about how everybody insists on talking to him about politics at parties, I'd tell him to go fuck himself. For that matter, if I ever caught myself whining about how everybody's always talking to me about comic books, I'd tell myself to go fuck myself. I'd never tell you to go fuck yourself, because I think you're swell...but still, I think the expectation here is that if we go looking for the attention then it's our obligation to take it graciously, even if it doesn't come preciously on our schedule.
Hold on a second, Gerard.
You wouldn't tell Leigh to go fuck herself over this because you think she's swell, but you would tell yourself to go fuck yourself if you wrote something similar?
Does that mean ... you do not think you are swell? :-O
This is not cool! We must all love ourselves!
Joking aside, I can definitely see why you think this latest post of Leigh's is obnoxious. I think the important thing to remember here is that, aside from her snappish reaction to the young man at the bar she described, we can reasonably assume (based on what little we know about her usual demeanor and personality) that Leigh does not typically behave unpleasantly whenever strangers try to use video games as a means to start a conversation with her.
It seems to me that this post is nothing more than her venting about it. My own major interest being political activism, I don't feel too bothered whenever people want to bring up issues of government and national affairs, even when I desperately want to avoid discussing those things sometimes. Maybe we all just possess different levels of patience.
Ceej, your comment makes a lot of sense. However, you're probably aware that men will often fetishize whatever traits they find attractive in women (or men) regardless of whether you're intentionally exhibiting that characteristic "to be sexy" or not. It makes no difference.
I myself fetishize, to a certain extent, "geeky" interests in women like comic books & science fiction. I think it's hot and I make no apologies for feeling that way. Now obviously, I need FAR MORE than that if a meaningful relationship is to be possible. I've cut loose more than a few girls who met this particular fetish of mine for various reasons.
Well, Miss Alexander has done it again; provoking insightful discussions and stirring up hornets nests. Human beings do not conduct themselves in an infinitely cheerful manner, and Leigh is certainly no goddess.
Speaking for myself, I'm a real asshole. Then again, that's kind of my thing.
The only games worth really talking about are the polarizing ones; like whether people think that Bioshock 2 was necessary, or of how No More Heroes 2 is batshit-off-the-wall crazy. What does a game like MW 2 or God of War 3 add to a conversation? "I played them, they're good," is the general consensus with those kinds of over-produced, pop culture centric games. They're an experience, but there's nothing stimulating about them besides the mechanics they force players to juggle around.
Granted, you could say NMH 2 is as pop culture centric as it gets, but the way it presents its influences are very tongue-in-cheek, which can turn some people "off" or "on." It creates a subjective experience rather than an objective one.
Idk, I feel like in games where all the players experience the same, strictly linear, roller coaster rides such as in a God of War or MW 2 do not create interesting conversations. There's not much room for debate besides "I played _________, it was awesome," "Yeah, me too." How does this stimulate the human mind besides "creating" some form of false spontaneous comradery?
But then again, unless the mechanics encourage creative problem solving, such as Oblivion, then there aren't really too many interesting experiences to talk about in games, that are subjective. I mean, now that I think about it, it would make sense that you cover the news side of the industry, it revolves around people, and where there are people there are always interesting stories.
I'll end it for now though, this post has turned into some kind of crazy rant. Kind of weird though, how you don't want to talk about games but create a whole post that says you're not interested in talking about games. Was the post part of the job, or a conduit for conversation?
Shit, people like pyrrhus make this place more interesting. Bring on the conflict/conversation. Imagine, polarizing opinions bring out social contrast. Or maybe, social perspective? Idk, must...see...people's...reactions...
Yeah, real set of fireworks have gone off in here, pretty funny really. Some people took this subject to heart it seems. At least you have 60 or so guys in here who understand your plight, since you actually engaged them with conversation instead of the other way around. That last sentence came out more backhanded than intended, there's nothing malicious in my tone.
Hmm, perhaps next time somebody says they like a game, you should ask "why" if you want to have an interesting conversation. That, or live with what your job has wrought upon your life. =( *sniffles*
In the scope of things, I'm sure there are worse things, such as guys not even wanting to talk to you. Be happy they at least approach you, even the cro-magnon lookin muddafuckas, which is kind of the vibe I'm getting.
Ceej:
"...I apologize if someone has already brought this up."
Brought what up? You don't make a point anywhere in your post.
Paragraph two noted that there exists an article somewhere that discusses being a female gamer.
Paragraph three contains the least controversial statement ever uttered, that we play games because we like to. "And that really struck a chord with [Ceej]."
I'm imagining the beauty of a life where arguments like, "humans do things because they enjoy them" inspire deep philosophical resonance. God that would be bliss.
The post wasn't without a noteworthy humorous interlude:
"I am only basing this statement on my own, personal life experience and the experiences of my fellow girl gamers that I've talked to-- this may not be universal and is not intended to be. But it seems like, to me, being a gaming girl is kind of...or something."
I removed half a sentence and we're left with a clinic on qualifying arguments. This paragraph is reminiscent of that middle school activity where you bundle eggs up in protective armor and hurl them out the third floor--I can't see, let alone eat an egg shrouded in bubble rap in a pile of cotton balls and two tupperware boxes rubber banded up--especially not when the teacher's busy consoling the girl who's crying because, well the egg symbolized a child and now it's broken and that's too much to handle, not to mention the retards who tried to protect their egg by building a newspaper parachute I mean ffs..
wait, where was I? Oh right, yeah, men "fetishizing" girl gamers. I can't lend much insight as I've never encountered overt fetishism, but I suspect nothing more nefarious than dudes being turned on by a woman with mutual interests. What can I say, if you're cute and like Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil and Castlevania, my lust is fucking biological.
"I think it's cool for someone to talk video games with you if that's what you have in common, or just in a casual setting. But if there's something more romantic going on, then they damn well better be able to talk about something else."
No shit, that's called being interesting.
"I, for one, have a million other hobbies and interests, and to only talk about one is an insult to me..."
That's not a personal insult. Conversational monomania is more of a reflexive exposure of stupidity.
Don't hate me, but I'm about to break character. Ceej, don't treat my post as a personal attack. I was primarily aghast at the content of the original post, and then frustrated by the comments. There seems to be no desire to produce consensus, no will to convince, no reasoned arguments. I pick on your post not because it's especially vacuous--look at Alvin, Robert or Skrattybones' early posts which lack any content and feel better about yourself--but because it contains one insightful, legitimately interesting point in 300 words of fluff.
"Women enjoy playing games, but men sexualize our hobby."
I want to talk about this, it's great stuff, wrong or right, and thought provoking. I want to talk about this, but I don't want lazily constructed non-arguments, stream-of-consciousness bloviation that once in a while approximates a good point. For that, I have Leigh Alexander's blog.
You hang out with me in a bar we could talk about politics and policy in DC, but then we'd be talking about MY job, and then I'd be bored. Let's stay on neutral ground and talk about Radiohead or something, deal? ;)
"Ceej, don't treat my post as a personal attack."
Maybe not intended as a personal attack, but it does come across that way. I thought Ceej gave some honest, interesting opinion on the subject, maybe not as argumentative as you're looking for, but then again, most of the comments so far are by ppl venting their immediate reactions, my own included, so I don't see why you find Ceej's any different?
In essence, you've just told her that she has nothing worth saying, which I find more than a little harsh. I personally found her reference to an older article very relevant (i'd be keen to read it Ceej, if you have the link?).
You're right, I don't find it controversial either that girls "don't play video games to pick up men...to have something to talk about with men...[and]...don't play video games for any other reason than because [they] like playing video games."
However, there will be some out there that do. It's like the argument that 'if women go out wearing short skirts they're asking for male attention' which is carted out every time rape crime is discussed. It's unthinkable to some that women would dress this way for any other reason, and of course it's complicated further if you consider the role of social conditioning.
Sorry, going off topic, and the examples are polar opposites. I just mean that just because Ceej didn't make a groundbreaking comment, doesn't mean she hasn't anything worthwhile to contribute. "Women enjoy playing games, but men sexualize our hobby." is an interesting topic to me too, so we should encourage discussion, not lambast Ceej for failing to get the ball rolling (although, to my mind, she did).
"there seems to be no desire to produce consensus"
Not thusfar, no, because it seems people are split over their opinion on Leigh's original post - whether she has a right to be annoyed or not. I don't think there can be consensus there. But there's definitely room to debate more on the GameCrush service and women gamers being fetishised.
"I want to talk about this, but I don't want lazily constructed non-arguments, stream-of-consciousness bloviation that once in a while approximates a good point. For that, I have Leigh Alexander's blog."
I don't agree with you there. I've only been here a short while, but I've found Leigh's writing interesting and thought-provoking. The thing about blogs is they're so easy to throw up that there are bound to be posts that come out in a bit of a splurge. Goodness knows my own is full of them. Same goes for comments too - like my one here *ahem* - and you might not actually have the time to get your thoughts in order first. But that's what I like about them, you get a real snapshot of the person at that moment. Of course, reasoning your views is important, yes, but that can come through further, fruitful discussion.
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree with the way you've come across. You want to encourage reasoned debate, but you've been very harsh on what's been written so far, some of which i've found very worthwhile.
"I don't see why you find Ceej's any different?"
Ceej's post is different because it was almost meaningful, whereas my eyes glaze over and I literally cannot force myself to remember most internet posters. Ceej succumbed to the worst of constantly reading inane writing. She genuinely thought about the subject before constructing her post, already much better than most of us, but she shrouds her point with unsubstantial bullshit and lines of qualifications which all but disclaim the real argument!
If commenters' discussions are ever going to become meaningful, lazy posting has to stop.
Warning, self-indulgent nitpicking follows.
"I personally found her reference to an older article very relevant (i'd be keen to read it Ceej, if you have the link?)."
There's no fucking article! It was "years ago." Did Ms. Alexander write it? Ceej is not sure! Ceej don't remember!
If this article exists, more precisely an article exists relating to this subject, surely it's relevant. Ceej's "reference" is unequivocally irrelevant.
The next paragraph of yours (about rape) is good. The qualm I have is that you credit Ceej's post, which contains none of the ideas you present, with being in some way useful.
You're right though, in a way. Ceej did get the ball rolling with the thesis I laboriously extracted from her post. I support sharing ideas, I do not support fluffy writing.
"whether she has a right to be annoyed or not. I don't think there can be consensus there."
We shouldn't give up. Leigh needs to address what the hell the actual problem is. She must define the "ugly underbelly" she condemns. Is she equating her goofball bartender friend with the kind of lowlife who would pay seventy bucks an hour to play a videogame with some whore?
Well yeah, she is, that's why she brought it up. I hate to think that she sees these dudes who fawn over her so blithely that they can't remember movies, music, the weather, as being the same class of male as the lowest reaches of pathetic gamerdom.
lol u need to get laid SVGL mebbe then u feel better
My favorite thing is when I write a post complaining about how something bothers me or how a certain vertex of culture behaves obnoxiously, and then i get a strong constituency of commenters who through their behavior demonstrate my rightness.
"You wouldn't ask your friend who's a lawyer for free legal advice every time you see him."
But when ever a see one of my few friends that are into gaming at a party or a gig, I always mention something that interests me in the field to them. Whenever I see my friend Bobak I always talk about the financial markets with him, not just solely that but normally without fail some of that. We both find it interesting, presumably you must find gaming interesting since you write about it. If gaming has become something that's just a job, that you need to get away from, so much so that you will snap at some poor guy trying to make conversation, perhaps you should get away from it. Find a field that doesn't turn your interests into a chore?
"You wouldn't ask your friend who's a lawyer for free legal advice every time you see him."
True - but asking a doctor is awesome!
You get some truely wierd stories about stuff that people have done to themselves.
"My favorite thing is when I write a post complaining about how something bothers me or how a certain vertex of culture behaves obnoxiously, and then i get a strong constituency of commenters who through their behavior demonstrate my rightness."
Don't focus on the negative so much, there are a lot of people who see what you're saying. The reality of the matter, is that you are a strange little novelty in the game spectrum, and you've carved that niche for yourself. I'm going to stop at that, as really; what business is it of mine to give a shit? I mean, seriously?
That came out extremely dick-ish, but in the scope of the internet, it's the truth. Your perspective is interesting, as it helps to build a collage of perspectives to see things through different lenses, but this "situation" is just part of the baggage that comes with your lot. Smile, make due, and live. If the story you describe in your post is accurate, you sound bored, self-righteous, and pretentious. I have sympathy for the awkward situations your job puts you in, but not for how you handle it. =(
But that's my view on it. In the end, does that even matter? Probably not. I mean, who am I? Oh, that's right, I'm Anonymous.
"lol u need to get laid SVGL mebbe then u feel better"
Heh, this destroys all of your future credibility. You lose, good day sir.
"You wouldn't ask your friend who's a lawyer for free legal advice every time you see him. You wouldn't ask your friend who's a tax preparer to share his expertise gratis. You wouldn't bug your psychologist friend about your traumatic childhood every time she simply wants to have coffee with you. You pay people for that stuff."
AMEN!
May I add - yes, I'm an illustrator/designer and no, I don't want to do you a favor and do up a whole website/band poster. Yeah, I like doing that kind of stuff (it's why I study & practice it), but I'm a professional! Would you ask a electrician friend to do rewiring for free, because hey, we're buds and all...
*whew*
With that off my chest, I think there was another thing you mentioned that caught my interest. The whole "Day with Leigh" for charity sounds kinda neat. Only insomuch that I see any encounter with a personal fav writer/artist/celebra-nerd as something cool. Although when bookended on your thoughts of GameCrush, et al...bleh. Just no.
To address a few things:
I have no idea how to find this article I mentioned. I wish I did, as it was one of my favorites and I should have book-marked it. The basic idea of the article centered around the idea that most gamer guys basically look at a girl who plays video games not as a "girl who happens to have something in common with me, which is unusual" but rather "holy crap she plays games and has boobs, obviously I must make her fall madly in love with me because this will never happen again". The original author then makes the same point that I made, which is that, hey, this is just ONE of the MANY things that make me who I am, and I'm not doing ANY of it for your personal gratification, buddy.
Obviously, not every hardcore male gamer out there is like that-- but surely even for you guys, that description rings a bell, either because you know someone who was like that, or you used to be like that. (Giving you the benefit of the doubt here!) I put such a strong disclaimer on the statement that "being a gaming girl is kind of... fetishized by a lot of guys" because any time I bring that up in real life, even to otherwise very rational people, I'm usually immediately forced to defend myself against the I'M NOT LIKE THAT AND I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO IS! HOW CAN YOU EVEN THINK THAT OF ME? sort of outburst. It's nice to see that there are people here who are adult and self-aware enough to say "well yeah, that turns me on, so what? So do a lot of things."
Ivan M-- It's not that being a geeky girl shouldn't be a turn on. I'm attracted to geeky men! But, as you seem to understand, there's more to a relationship than a single turn on. You would be insulted if some girl ONLY loved you because you were a mean cook and your entire relationship revolved around discussing, cooking and eating food. I'm insulted when a guy's sexual interest in me seems to be based *entirely* on the fact that I play video/tabletop games.
Pyrrhus-- in response to "No shit, that's called being interesting."
I say COMPLETELY without sarcasm that you've advanced far beyond a LOT of your fellow gamers and male-geek culture in general. Perhaps because I spend a lot of time tabletop gaming as well, but I have found that around 80% of the conversations I have with men who start up a conversation based on some form of gaming end up being on one of two subjects-- A) How awesome they are at X game and how they beat everyone's butt at it or B) their 18 level paladin, or genre appropriate substitute. And that is ALL they talk to me about, whether I attempt to find out other interests of theirs, or slip in some of my own, or not.
And that's where it gets irritating, at least for me. Because there's no conversation happening there-- anymore than there's conversation really happening when some guy at a bar uses a pickup line. I want to talk about how utterly fucking amazing Braid was for me, as an experience, if not as a narrative, or as a game, and get into the other person's head on the subject. And then, maybe I'll see something I like, and then I'll bring up that I also happen to like to bake cakes and I'll show him a picture of my Portal cake and he'll talk about how his grandmother made cakes and she also,oddly, loved the band Soul Asylum and I'll say omigod I loved Soul Asylum, and then we'll get married and run off and make lots of babies or something.
Or not.
But the point is, if I'm going to have a conversation about video games that lasts more than five minutes, and/or is a repeated conversation with the same person, I like to throw my brain around, not my boobs. And too often, I either have the whole conversation with the guys eyes glued to my breasts, or the conversation is so mind-numbingly generic that I could just record one conversation and just stick the playback device inside the mouth of nearly every other guy I meet.
You flatter me, Ceej.
I'm afraid my cooking is mediocre at best. :-(
You wouldn't ask your friend who's a lawyer for free legal advice every time you see him. You wouldn't ask your friend who's a tax preparer to share his expertise gratis. You wouldn't bug your psychologist friend about your traumatic childhood every time she simply wants to have coffee with you.
Actually, people do exactly this. They really really do. And if you're an MD, expect friends, acquaintances, newly met strangers try to show you whatever disgusting growths they have too. =p
I would actually love to pay to talk MGS with you (for charity). I mean, as someone who considers him self to live and breath the MGS Mythos, the desire to talk real "meems and norms" with someone since the start has grown so strong- that this actually really-really interests me!
And I assure you, your gender has nothing to do with my interest.
If you are willing to humor me with this endeavor, I am actually pretty serious about it.
I feel your pain - as my kayaker friends will tell you, river tourons are constantly asking us boater-types to do trick, like we're paid seals...
maybe if they threw me a fish...
I usually enjoy your work, Leigh, but I must say that I think this is a bit petty. I'm a lawyer, and unsurprisingly, when people find out that I'm a lawyer, they often attempt to talk to me about the law. It's simple a convenient starting point for a conversation. The men who talk to you may be less versed in the social graces, but they're just trying to talk to you. In a sense, talking to you about video games is less of a problem than talking to me about the law, because as somebody else has pointed out, few become a lawyer because they love the law, whereas many video game journalists chose that profession because they love video games.
Also, bringing your personal appearance up detracted from your argument a bit, I think. There are doubtless many people who are enamored with you, including some readers of this site. But I make my occasional visit to this site because I enjoy your writing, not because I harbor some fantasy that you'll like my comment, and we'll have a Bioshock-themed wedding.
Basically, although there are doubtless many annoyances that go along with being a female gamer, I'm not sure your complaint is particularly justified. People try to find common ground with other people. You're most well known for enjoying video games. It shouldn't surprise you that people bring it up.
Leigh is a closet troll. She should be thankful she doesn't work in porn.
Honestly this is often bought about by ones self by not setting boundaries. Have the guts to say no. Generally you are going to smile and have a pleasant conversation about it anyway, how is anyone to know you'd rather be talking about something else?
To give an example, I thought dinner and movies was a fairly staple date, everyone likes movies. After a couple cinema visits I noticed every time we left the cinema she was more or less a hollow husk of a person. So I stopped her and lo and behold, she can't stand watching movies and just wanted to hang out. This time the signs were all there, they often aren't.
Sometimes its a transition. My lawyer friend loved talking law with me, he was totally passionate. Then the quality of the conversations degraded, he had burnt out. It really isn't easy to pick up on this happening so please, tell us if you aren't interested. There is nothing more refreshing than someone being frank and saying they don't want to talk about it, much better than having a half-hearted conversation that you they aren't even listening to.
You really have to set your own pace here, as most people are going to continue on as they are, forever and ever. If you learn to nip conversation you don't want to have in the bud, you'll enjoy the rest. I know people who happily discuss their professions off the clock because they know when say they don't feel like it.
Eventually you will find a balance, as I imagine if you shut it out completely you'll miss it and gaming will become just work. For us non-press gamers I'm sure the social side of it both online and off is a big part of it. If I couldn't talk about games to anyone I doubt I'd still bother with them.
What you really want is more quality and less frequency. I think most of us would love to sit down at a cafe once or twice a week and talk nuances about our beloved past-time. To be honest most of the time people talk about games its usually shallow, inconsequential rubbish. Decent conversation are hard to find no matter where you are or what you do.
This is more or less why I ended up here, I can have a mature conversation in the comments and only pitch in when I feel like it.
The gaming world is far to fast-paced to keep up with so taking things at your own pace is an absolute must. If it means skipping half the games that come out to be able to enjoy the half you are actually interested in, so be it.
If it makes you feel any better the IGN Nintendo guys were the prettiest girls in town at their fan meet up. They had other dudes buying them drinks all night and everyone wanted to talk games, so this issue you are having may not be any better if you were a girl.
Personally I'd kill to have people actually care about anything I like.
Continued reply;
As for the quality of Leigh's post, its a blog, I personally enjoy having a whinge sometimes, and Leigh as come out and said this is pissing her off, and some people have shared their advice or experiences. Whats wrong with that?
If you want editorials, subscribe to her byline and not her blog.
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"I want to talk about this, but I don't want lazily constructed non-arguments, stream-of-consciousness bloviation that once in a while approximates a good point. For that, I have Leigh Alexander's blog."
Reality is that we aren't all fountains of wisdom. Leigh's post more or less amounted to "Errrrg I'm frustrated about the lack of separation between work and my social life" which in itself is not profound, but from that we've developed some interesting conversation.
Not everything in life is going to be worthwhile to everyone. I've gleaned some interesting perspective from some of the many comments left here, and others were completely irrelevant to me.
Its ironic that we are talking about social issues and you complain about stream-of-consciousness bloviation, because that is more or less what most conversations are at one point or another. Again we can't be bastions of insight and interest all the time.
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"My favorite thing is when I write a post complaining about how something bothers me or how a certain vertex of culture behaves obnoxiously, and then i get a strong constituency of commenters who through their behavior demonstrate my rightness."
Might want to get over that one. Its naturally going to happen as here you are the gracious host and people will want to defend you, right or wrong.
In your post you have a valid complaint, you've identified a problem, isn't it time try something new and see if it solves the problem?
That kind of desire for validation usually isn't healthy, even if its completely understandable.
Part 3;
"May I add - yes, I'm an illustrator/designer and no, I don't want to do you a favor and do up a whole website/band poster. Yeah, I like doing that kind of stuff (it's why I study & practice it), but I'm a professional! Would you ask a electrician friend to do rewiring for free, because hey, we're buds and all..."
Its called having healthy relationships.
I have lots of friends I'd willingly do free work for, and often do, because they'll do and have done the same for me.
It is really just a matter of knowing when to say no, for instance that friend who more or less is just a parasite who only wants to use you but will never do anything for you.
Or like when you have people over for dinner, they all say they'll have you over, but most never do. After a few times the only ones getting re-invites are the ones who've at least attempted to show me some hospitality (not everyone can cook after all).
You need to work on healthy, mutually beneficial relationships. In such a dog eat dog world, real friends and allies are priceless.
I can't imagine how much money my family has saved by exchanging services for services. We got a free home network, hardware and all, and in exchange we helped him with his house.
Be giving, but don't let people use you. You'll be much happier and better off.
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You think you got it bad? You should try being a guy who likes dick and shoes!
That's all the girls ever want to talk to me about.
I have the odd distinction of being a straight guy who is into fashion design and various other girls interests.
It seems ideal, but its a terrible combination. It throws girls on a total defensive, because I'm straight I'm clearly trying to get in their pants (and hey sometimes I am) so liking these things is clearly a means to the end that is sex. No guys want to talk about it (or at least aren't letting on) so as such I've never had a decent discussion about this with anyone ever.
Finding worthwhile things to talk about is hard. Social rules seem to dictate a guy can't talk girl-talk unless he is gay. So I have to find something else to talk about, 99% of the time games aren't a good choice (replace games with football/cars/etc for the everyman), so you end up talking about your jobs or some crap like that again. Leading into interesting conversations is a difficult art.
I know this post is kind of dead, but I just wanted to chip in. The whole girl-gamer fetish is bad enough, although any gamer who has meted out any sort of social functionality should know better than to grill his date on their powerup preferences in Mario Kart after she mentions her competitive flourish finding fertile soil in games. We've got plenty of people who haven't reached that point of equilibrium yet in our subculture, and there are plenty of people outside of it of whom the same could be said.
That said, I think as much of the fetishization you get comes from the fact that you're an intelligent, articulate author who writes about games the same way that Dana Stevens writes about films or John Cusack writes about being John Cusack. You recognize where games are placed in a larger cultural continuum and discuss them as such. That fact alone makes you something of a rarity in our culture. The fact that you're a "gamer grrl" definitely makes it worse, but I just wanted to point out that some of us are here fetishizing your brain, and that the "total package" can easily overwhelm some folk's social skills. So remember, it's not just the girl thing. It's the articulate subcultural writer thing as well. Anyhow, keep on rockin' out.
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