[errand boy and spacy girl]In my month-end feature at Kotaku, I tried to pin down one of my favorite things about the game -- how the experiences of the protagonist within the story closely mirror the interaction of the player with the game.
I also touched on the differences between P3 and P4, and why it seems like P3 was so much darker. Anyway, see what you think -- the entire topic was a bit harder to articulate than I thought it might be, but hopefully it comes across.
We also recently published an opinion column at Gamasutra written by freelancer Samantha Xu. She spoke to a lot of sources specifically to talk about Kanji Tatsumi's sexuality in the game, which is certainly interesting.
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with all of her points -- my thought regarding the character's shadow selves is not that they are a literal expression of a factual inner self, but a depiction that illustrates how that person fears being perceived, generally.
I don't think it's possible to look at Yukiko's or Rise's shadow, for example, and embrace the idea that that's how they "want to be" or "secretly are" -- it seems instead a harsh and frightening way of exaggerating a certain core truth about themselves, or suggesting that that's how "viewers" are seeing their worst traits.
Though whether Kanji is afraid he'll look ridiculous if he accepts being gay, or is just afraid he'll be seen as gay because he likes soft things and is afraid of women, who knows. I like that the story doesn't definitively answer that question. I've heard a lot of people say it would have been "better" if they'd just made him definitively gay, but that sort of misses the point, I think, accords him more conclusive treatment than the other characters get.
In any event, both Samantha's Persona 4 article and mine are spoiler-free, so you have no excuses! Unless, of course, you're not interested in P4. That'd be a fine reason. That'd make you crazy, but hey, I don't judge. Not really.
Oh, and one more thing -- the verbose and hyper-enthusiastic Matthew Hawkins is having a Persona 4 art contest over at his blog. You can win the Social Link expansion set, if you weren't a weirdo who preordered it the day it became available like I was.
21 comments:
I didn't get the sense that the characters were worried about "viewers" seeing their worst traits, but that the persona's were actually a part of who they were.
Not that I completely agree with Samantha Xu either, because I don't believe that Kanji is necessarily gay and hiding it from himself, but that it was a part of him that he didn't accept. I think the point is that it's impossible to categorize someone by one "persona," just like sexuality is hard to categorize as "gay" or "straight" or "bisexual." It's usually more complicated than that.
I think Yukiko and Rise's shadows were a part of who they are as well, and like you said in your article on Kotaku, P4 is about accepting those hidden parts of yourself in order to discover who you truly are.
*Spoilerish*
First off Persona 2 did feature an openly homosexual (well fairly open) character that the MC could actually partner with (in a somewhat joking manner). All that said the earlier Persona games while very good dungeon crawlers are fairly straightforward JRPGS mechanically. No Social Links to be found.
Its really hard to discuss Kanji without dealing with Naoto. Kanji's attraction to Naoto specifically that first makes Kanji seriously question his sexual preference. This of course leaves a big out as it were.
As an aside, has anyone found a full sets of in dungeon dialog for party members? My guess is because of all the permentations involved it would likely have to be lifted from the code itself though there might be some Japanese message board somewhere where a guy went through and found it all...
My favorite so far comes after I maxed out Yukiko but did not choose her. It was Yukiko and Yosuke and here's a paraphrased dialog:
Yukiko: "I'm glad I have such good friends. I don't agree with those who say boys and girls can't be very good friends, I think they can."
Yosuke: "I disagree. I believe that in time the friendship will fall apart because one will end up wanting the other.
By the way Yukiko, I'd be willing to ruin our friendship anytime..."
Yukiko: "That is so not going to happen."
I wish I had a PS2, then I could play these games. Pity I only just went with the current generation after missing out on Xbox and Playstation when I got a Dreamcast. Oh well.
I really wish I could draw, I NEED that Persona 4 kit. It's not available over here.
I really cannot wait to get this game, released in March here.
I loved your P4 thingy by the way. 'Twas awesome.
To Robert: (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=945498&topic=47612351) This has the dungeon dialogue that people have discovered so far.
(Note: Definite spoilers, though if you're arguing about this game, you really should play it first)
Kanji isn't gay, it ain't like that dammit! Seriously, why are the shadow selves so hard to understand for some people? They're just an over exaggeration of people's fears and innermost thoughts. Kanji just wants to be accepted as a person, his sexuality only comes into question because of his hobbies. Nobody wants to mention that there are several occasions where Kanji exhibits heterosexual behavior: the camping trip he gets a nosebleed when yukiko and chie are wearing swimsuits, he practically begs Naoto to be in the Miss Yasogami High Pageant (Make me a man dammit!), also when the girls are wearing Kimonos Kanji can't even look at them (because he'd probably get a nosebleed). It's easy to say Kanji is gay based on his shadow, unless of course you actually listen to what it says. Kanji is merely afraid that because he likes to sew and do things that aren't considered "manly" people won't like him. "Won't ANYBODY accept me for who I am!" Kanji's shadow screams at you, also when you're fighting it as a boss every time it attacks it yells "LOVE ME!" The gay thing is more of a running gag that Yosuke brings up whenever he gets the chance. You could argue that he was obviously interested in Naoto before he knew she was a she, but he was never sexually interested in Naoto(at least, not at the time), he merely was fascinated with the fact that she wanted to talk with him and get to know him (or from her point of view, investigate the case more).
Don't get me wrong (I shouldn't even have to say this) but I'd have no problem if Kanji was gay. But he's not. The whole point of this game is to not judge a book by its cover. You can look at Kanji's shadow, it wears basically nothing, has a lisp, and (at first) talks mostly about men and bathhouses. When you look deeper, there's more to it than that. Just like everything else in the goddamn game. Hell you have to look as deep as you possibly can just to be able to get the true ending. I could cover Kanji's social link, but I'm gettin kinda tired of typin.
Bearsona,
I think you definitely see my point, and I'm inclined to largely agree with your interpretation.
Just wanted to note, though, that during the "nosebleed" scene, the boys are wearing swimsuits, too. :)
I actually feel its very obvious that Kanji is attracted to Naoto before the reveal. Notice how embarrassed he gets when you first notice them together. And then later before Naoto joins how tongue tied Kanji is.
Of course that in and of itself doesn't answer much since Kanji and Naoto both overmasculinize themselves. Meaning if Naoto was wearing the right school uniform would Kanji still find Naot attractive is a fair question.
Also keep in mind (next to Teddie) Kanji takes little convincing to join the pageant.
I guess my point is that game leaves Kanji still fairly confused but open to exploring his confusion instead of fully hiding behind the tough guy image he was presenting. Of course male pattern baldness issues aside, Kanji is still 15.
But just because Kanji can be attracted to women doesn't mean he exclusively or mostly is. I've yet to meet a person who isn't at least a little bisexual. Also note that Kanji never directly denies being gay; he says such things as, "I ain't like that." It seems more to me like he's still just afraid of being seen as ridiculous more than he's afraid of being seen as gay.
As for the shadow selves and how they relate to the characters, I think that while they are exaggerated, the traits expressed by a shadow self are traits that the character in question literally possesses. It seems to me that the game goes a long way to emphasize that the shadow selves are the characters; it's just that they're only one part of the character.
Heck, now that I think of it, one of the last things Kanji says in his social link is something along the lines of "I realized that that other me is me."
Michael -- sorry I had to delete your comment. It was a great example of your point, but a little TOO spoilerish! I don't want anyone to have to be afraid of glancing through comment threads here!
If you'd like, please try reposting with fewer specifics. Thank you.
Spoilers (Not really any spoilers, but better safe than sorry)
I immediately thought that too (about the boys wearing swimsuits also that is), so basically that (what I said earlier) doesn't really count as evidence towards Kanji's heterosexuality. But, and I'm going off memory here, I believe Kanji turns around as soon as the girls enter the scene. I may be mistaken, plus the boys had just been pushed off the cliff, so you could say he was looking at them and he got a nosebleed, but that's digging a little too deep to make a point. His sexuality is definitely a sensitive point for Kanji, and he does seem embarrassed whenever it is brought up for questioning, so there are some valid points to either side of the argument. But from what I've seen in the game, and the experience I got from playing it, I never really got the impression that he was gay. This game really makes you ponder the whole "Reality is in the eye of the beholder" idea. Some people will see Kanji as gay, others won't. The facts the game gives you though, point more towards straight, and that's just what I'm basing my evaluation off of. You don't see Kanji flirting with any of the guys, or completely ignoring the girls. He gets uncomfortable yes, but to a shy person the opposite sex can be very scary. This fear can be misinterpreted as homosexuality, I'm sure he's not the first to have people think that. Saying that makes me understand why his shadow looked the way it did. Could be one of his fears, "Do people think I'm gay?" Being misjudged by others, I would imagine it happens to us all. I have to tip my hat to this game, haven't used my brain this much in a while.
Kanji is one of the most excellent RPG characters I've encountered. I enjoyed the shit out of his social link -- we need more three-dimensional tough guys. Yay P4!
The only downside to P4 is how 'and then and then' the true ending is.
I was kind of on the fence if I should have put it, so I completely understand Leigh.
To just kind of summarize my thoughts, I think that the shadow selves are based on doubts that the characters have, but significantly exaggerated for the entertainment of those watching. Kanji did have doubts about himself, he felt that no one understood him because he was a boy who enjoyed doing girly things (sewing, cooking [I think], etc.). Add to that his peers who, at that age, are quick to judge (he likes to sew so he must be gay).
As far as his attraction to Naoto, Bearsona basically made the point that Naoto was probably the only person to approach Kanji and not judge him (to be fair Naoto was only interested in the case and not Kanji, per se). Kanji's lament about no one understanding him probably means he grew up without any friends. When Naoto started talking with him, he probably didn't know what to think or how to deal with it.
@Michael,
I got the feeling it's more an exaggeration of what they're suppressing or compensating for with their "mask" personality. Kanji tough guy vs. sissy boy, Yukiko refined vs. man-hungry, Naoto child vs. adult, etc.
"After Several Days of Rain"
The fog comes. We all know what happens then. HANGIN BODY
I'm starting to feel like the Old Bag from Phoenix Wright. Posts will be short from now on (for a day)
If you get that reference you are awesome and don't let anyone tell you otherwise o_o
Tom Daschle's persona would be Nopay, nonpayer of taxes.
@Phil Villarreal: Although, wouldn't something along the lines of Daikokuten fit better with the theme the rest of the main personae in Persona 4 follow?
There is one idea I have about the shadowselves that meshes more with Suspect 10's explanation of the TV world than the common interpretation. Is it possible, that instead of simply representing a hidden aspect of the inner self, the shadowself also represents the sociatal exagerations given by the viewers who see the Midnight Channel?
Kanji is a man who likes things that are normally considered "girly." Now, what does society think of someone like that? In the same vein, Rise mentions that her shadow self is better endowed than she is. She later goes on to point out that her official measurements have been slightly enhanced. May that have something to do with her shadow's larger chest? And Teddie is a big one on this. If someone saw him on the Midnight Channel, what might they think? Would he really have a "self," or would society think of him as a simple fictional character?
Yukiko is a big roadblock to this theory. Her inner self was pretty well hidden, and the concept of the "prince coming to take her away" wasn't necessarily on the minds of the MC's viewership beforehand. Yosuke and Chie also have these snags, albiet Yosuke's Shadow actually seems to fit how the people of the town might really see him.
Ah, what a wonderful fantasy, that can bring us into these wonderful asides on life and self.
Laura,
I don't agree with you that Yukiko breaks the mold. Her issue is that she feels powerless in her situation so she is waiting to see who's strong enough to rescue her from it -- and of course, since she's the only one who can change her life, no one will ever be good enough.
So she's not impressed by men and is reserved, even though her classmates are impressed with her beauty and achievements.
If you think of how they'd see someone like that -- a tease, a demanding princess flaunting how great she is and then running constantly out of reach, that's definitely the way that other people would probably view her.
Keep in mind only three worlds really were set up as TV shows, Yukiko's, Kanji's and Rise's. That is important because they are the only ones who would have had been exposed to the Midnight Channel rumor after the first murders.
Shadows are repressed thoughts that escape, basically id without any ego control. They are things the characters are trying to deny about themselves (Chie does harbor jealous thoughts about Yukiko, Yukiko is aware of her sexuality, Rise does have exhibitionist tendicies).
First off, thanks for the thoughts, Leigh. Second, my theory only serves to consider the reasons why the shadowselves are so far beyond a simple representation of each character's own inner repressed self. Teddie's other self was a simple creepy version of his main self (and one of the games coolest looking bosses, IMO), while Naoto's other self maintained the biggest suppressed secret of all. One wonders what Shadow Naoto might have looked like if the viewers of the Detective Prince interview had known what Naoto tried so hard to conceal.
Mitsuo and the last victim also had rather interesting cases. Essentially, Mitsuo was an unknown individual to the public, so his shadow was relatively simple and unambiguous. His Shadow boss fight and dungeon connected with his dark personality. The last victim essentially had no shadow self, for a myriad of reasons.
The first ending fork scene is what I consider to be the ultimate evidence for my theory, though. After one of the games most masterful story moments, you confront the suspect, who you then see on the Midnight Channel. I can't explain any more than that without huge spoilers, but suffice it to say that something about the Midnight Channel itself seems very wrong here.
The shadow selves all obviously possess some real suppressed trait that the characters have trouble accepting, but they are always so out of proportion to the trait.
Then again, is that the fault of the viewers, or is it the fault of the character who is facing the shadow self, as a result of their extreme fear or hatred of that part of themself? Does Kanji create the flamboyant shadow subconciously because it makes it easier to hate or refuse to accept it? What about the others? From one idea to another, it seems.
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