In that Gamasutra writeup of Yoshiaki Koizumi 's discussion on Galaxy I did and have since been nattering about, he explained the challenges of transitioning Mario to 3D -- there were physical issues, like conceptualizing the character in an additional dimension, and there were design issues. Koizumi correctly noted that in Mario 64, players had issues judging depth and distance, making it difficult to jump on Goombas. I'll quietly put my hand up here. I hate Mario 64 -- actually, I hate the entire Nintendo 64 episode, for similar reasons. It was grueling when it didn't need to be; 3D was just frustrating to me, back then, with those games, with that controller.Koizumi also mentioned that players could easily become disoriented or lost; it's not so easy to keep a mental map of a polygonal world when one's perspective is always shifting. It was these things he says he had in mind when conceptualizing the spherical design of Galaxy -- it solved a lot of those issues that have made 3D Marios more pain than pleasure. Adding the spin attack and allowing the seminal plumber to shoot Star Bits removes the need to jump, for those like me who don't like scrutinizing shadows, lip bitten down, hoping to land on a monster's head and not at that infuriating point directly in front of its face that results in certain injury.
I ended up playing a lot of older games, mostly Virtual Console stuff, over the weekend. Bonk's Adventure, Donkey Kong Country, and Super Mario World. I also recently played pretty much every portable Castlevania there is, including that rather excellent translation of Symphony of the Night on PSP as part of the Dracula X chronicles. This is kind of an odd pastiche, but the one thing they all have in common is they're all 2D (DK Country has 3D objects, but it's still a left-to-right with no level depth). I've been sick over the past few days, and I was just too fatigued for Galaxy or Mass Effect, both of which I'm not optimistic about actually completing.
Playing Mario World, I realized several things: first, new games really have effed my reflexes. Second, games that take skill are a lost art. Third, I don't really like Mario all that much. And finally, there is no good reason whatsoever for Mario to be 3D. Ever, at all.
I have to assume that the third dimension evolved into gaming to create immersion and realism. Those two words -- immersion and realism -- seem to have ended up clasping hands quite tightly over the ages, but do they really need to? Take another series occupying lots of my time lately, Castlevania. It's 2D and realistic is probably the last word I'd use to describe it, but immersive is one of the first. It has a few things in common with Mario; consistent themes that persist in the series' lifetime and are used to define it, familiar level designs, a single distinctive look and style, to name a few. And consistently, over the past few weeks, I continually preferred playing Symphony to Galaxy, even though according to the evolution of games such a preference flies in the face of reason. After all, it's 2D, it's old, and, here's the kicker -- I've played it already.
If you look objectively at my gaming behavior over the last month or so, you could make the case that I'm having one of those blind nostalgia-fests to which those of us who play for years are sometimes unfortunately susceptible. But the certain fact has become clear to me that making games 3D actually causes them to lose something; that in this quest for "realism" in our fantasy exploits (time paradox?) we're sacrificing a lot. It's like that generally unfortunate period in the history of PC gaming when suddenly everything was being done with live actors. Logic and the natural progression of the medium would dictate that going in this direction was a great thing to do, and yet, in practice, it didn't quite turn out that way. Now all we have to remember that era by are a bunch of old Youtube videos that look like Cinemax.
Koizumi's right that Galaxy's spherical design keeps me from ever getting lost. But it also deprives me of the satisfaction of mapping things out in my head, of creating a sense of having explored every corner. That's what I absolutely love about Castlevania -- watching my map fill out and spread from the point at which I began, seeing the ways disparate rooms eventually end up linking together, and finally, by the end, realizing I've looked at absolutely everything.
The fact it's played in two dimensions works for it. And I'd really defy anyone to state that Castlevania's sprites aren't visually compelling, piquant to the imagination, almost unparalleled in that respect. There's just something about them it's just not possible to achieve in 3D.
Mario's never been particularly visually interesting. Distinctive, sure, but the background, I think, was always meant to be exactly that. I remember first playing Super Mario World and loving the way the clouds and weird green hills layered over one another in the background, but thematically, it's been the same forever. But Mario's also never been about flashy looks, deeply interactive environments or riveting stories. It's about starting at the beginning of one level, navigating its hazards, and getting to the end.
I've realized, I think, why Galaxy leaves me feeling teased, perpetually unsatisfied -- in a sphere, there is no beginning, and no end.
I don't think I've been playing old games because I'm on some kind of nostalgia trip. I think it's that there are elements of 2D gameplay that can't be replicated in three dimensions. And I'm not saying I hate 3D or we need to immediately go back to 2D; there are a good deal of games -- maybe the majority -- that hinge on that dimension and do a fine job of it. But I didn't like Castlevania in 3D, and I don't like Mario in 3D, either. It's an excessive amount of trussing for a nonsense character in a nonsense world. I don't want Mario to be lifelike. I want Mario to be Mario.
16 comments:
Leigh, I certainly agree with you. Mario64 didn't feel like a traditional title whatsoever. Sure looking over its quirks (alongside Zelda). Their venture towards the 3D worlds have been maybe too expansive for their own good.
Which is another reason why I have never played a Final Fantasy game after VII. Just the distractions of prolonged cutscenes, that literally pull you out of the storyline (and many games followed).
Although aseries worth mentioning is Oddworld. I was surprised to see someone pull such a stunt, yet it let you enjoy its design. As if with care, every action, made a re-action just like traditional games we grew up with.
Honestly wish that more games were like that lately. Even if Sonic or Mario took a trip back into 2D perspective. That would be humbly rewarding, and it didn't have to be an overdrawn adventure. Just simple & fun, yet creative at the same time.
I fel tlike a heretic for not liking Mario 64. Glad I'm not the only one.
If you're despairing of finishing Mass Effect, try ditching the optional sidequests and stick to the missions. I feel like the game and story improved as it went along, and it was worth seeing through to the end.
When reading negative comments about Mario 64 there's a moment when I feel a reflexive urge to protest. The problem, though, is that Galaxy is in arguably every respect superior to its Nintendo 64 counterpart, from design to implementation -- yet I enjoy it much less.
What this has left me with is the conclusion that my love of Mario 64 can largely be attributed to nostalgia, but that's just it! Galaxy has attempted to "fix" some aspects of 64 through its linearity, but the creation has ultimately been deprived of longevity. I doubt I will be able to look back on Galaxy with the irrational fondness with which I look back on Mario 64, because it's composed of paths I've been led down rather than places I've been.
I miss 2D RPGs so much, the extra dimension added so little for that genre. That's why Chrono Trigger still looks fantastic today, but FF7-9 have aged so poorly visually. Godspeed, Mother 3 translation team!
What kinds of games really need to be 3d anyway? It just seems like the shift was made with very little thought on how best to execute it.
However, it can be done. For example, Metriod Prime is very good in 3D. Even so, it is still no substitute for the 2D goodness it once was.
2D will make a comeback, once people stop worrying so much about the "oohs" and "aahs" of the technology, and just want to play games.
Well im an defender of 3D games.
I know that many people have problems with 3D environments like navigating in it etc. but 3D is a need for many game concepts. for example Portal. Ok, Portal does also somehow work in 2d but its flash spinoff but this never get the same flair like the 3d version. Fighting games like Tekken or DoA are using 3d for better gameplay, more dodges etc.
But you also have 2D games today in 3D design. For example Final Fantasy, one if the preview comments said that he never played a FF over VII but in truth Final Fantasy is still, even today, a 2D game gameplaywise. Your movement and actions are all taking place on a 2D grid like in old RPGs. The only thing it changed was the graphic design. In the PS1-FF versions the characters could also be 2d sprites instead of 3d, it wouldn't matte it uses 3d terrain with 2d characters but in the end the gameplay still remains two dimensional.
The real problem are in fact platformer. Since the dawn of the 3d era, platform games like mario are very hard to generate, mainly because the genre got one dimension more to navigate and only rescent it realize that this maybe isn't a good idea. I want to remember people at the early 3d strategy games. Horrible camera positions, terrain that kills your view or 3D Strategy games like Homeworld with 3d movement in space, ending in horribly controls. Then blizzard came and said: "guys, 3d doesnt work with strategy games!" and they released Warcraft 3. After Warcraft 3 all the developers returned to the old fassion view angle of strategy game with a fixed camera perspective. and RTS returned to its well crafted 2d nature. But still, some RTS games like Supreme Commander are only working in 3d because of its design. The 3d environment allows realistic ballistic behavior.
So in the end we STILL HAVE 2D games and i would say they are the majority of game titles out there. Even Metal Gear Solids gameplay (1-3) is mainly 2d gameplay and not this much different from Metal Gear 1 and 2.
- I'm just glad I can enjoy both 2D AND 3D games. I think you all would be a lot happier if you just enjoyed every game for what it was, instead of carrying all sorts of preconceived notions along with you.
With Mario 64, the focus of the platform genre shifted away from precision and reflexes to exploration and adventuring. I can certainly see someone deploring that situation, but why bother? 2D platformers are still being made, so just go play one of those once in a while.
- "I don't want Mario to be lifelike. I want Mario to be Mario."
3D does NOT equal realism. Mario is just as fantastical in 3D as he was in 2D.
- Comparing 3D environments to the FMV era is hardly accurate, wouldn't you agree? The FMV-movement failed because it took control away from the player. Interactivity is arguably the raison d'etre of our medium. In contrast, 3D is just as interactive as 2D (or even moreso, if greater freedom of action equates to greater interactivity).
Just wanted to make the comment that as early as one of the first 3d games on the Playstation 1, Crash Bandicoot, realised several of the problems you are talking about. It was 3d, but you travelled along a (generally) linear path, eliminating shifting camera perspectives. They also recognised the difficulty of 'landing' on the head of an enemy in 3d, and so they too included a 'spin attack'... Is Mario Galaxy really THAT revolutionary in these respects? Crash Bandicoot came out in 1996, are we just redesigning the wheel here?
galaxy is for 10 year old kids.
if i was 10 i would think galaxy
was an amazing game.
you don't like the new version as much because you are older now.
move on with your life.....
I feel the same about Metroid. Prime didn't do much for me at all. I love Super Metroid and Zero Mission, and like Fusion. (Only like because its brutally HARD and very linear. Still fun, but not all it could be.)
I know its in first person as opposed to 3d like the Marios and Castlevanias I don't really like to have never played, but its kind of the same thing I think.
The original design worked so well, and it really feels like a disconnect when its switched to 3d...
I think that both 2D and 3D are very much good at different things.
Yes, there are things about 2D mario that cannot convert to 3D, but there are plenty of things in Galaxy that could never work in a 2D game.
That all said, I would strongly recommend you take a look at Aquaria.
Interesting, the way the various pleasures of gaming wax and wane in importance. Last month or so, I haven't been able to do anything with any game with a strong story component. For me lately, it's all pure play: flying space shooters, pinball sims, and the occasional puzzle game. Rhythm games, too.
I'm hoping this phase is over by the time No More Heroes comes out...
The other thing that's funny is the way everybody jumped from Mario to Metroid. I didn't play Metroid 'til Metroid Prime. While I hate platformers in almost all circumstances, I found the navigation components of that game pretty fun, and mostly manageable. I mean, these were 3D jumps, presented to a total 3D neophyte. (I skipped everything between the NES and the GCN, except for some PC games here & there.) But these jumps were almost uniformly easy to judge, easy to attain. Total brilliance of execution.
When I tried to get around to the earlier Metroids, I haven't really seen what everybody's on about. I like the two GBA originals, but the GBC thing? The original? Super Metroid?
Okay, Super Metroid is pretty sweet. But the others don't do nearly as much for me as MP and Corruption have done...
"Koizumi's right that Galaxy's spherical design keeps me from ever getting lost. But it also deprives me of the satisfaction of mapping things out in my head, of creating a sense of having explored every corner."
Though the spherical designs do keep one from getting lost, there's still a lot there to take in. One of the many things I love about Super Mario Galaxy (as well as SMB3 and SMW) is there is so much there to explore, so many hidden spots and areas that are hinted at for you to find or reach.
I love so many of your posts, Leigh, but I just can't agree with your premise here. 3D exists to make things more realistic? Grim Fandango begs to differ!
Or more to the point of action platform games, Psychonauts is one of the most creative, lovingly crafted platformers I've ever played, it's got cartoony style out the wazoo, and it absolutely would never have worked in 2D. The acrobatic sense of freedom, zipping down that wire to leap off of that trampoline, swing on that vine and just barely get enough air to land up on that cliff - it's a puzzle, of sorts, that needs a 3D landscape to work.
The recent Prince of Persia games would be another excellent example. The 3D perspective has nothing to do with "realism", and everything to do with level design; they're laying out obstacles in 3D space and letting you figure out how best to deal with them. The enjoyable complexity of the level could not exist without being in 3D; the original Prince of Persia games were great, but I can't imagine somebody saying the level design was BETTER in those 2D games than it is in Sands of Time. A 3D level layout lets them do things you just can't do in 2D.
To a certain extent, I think the 3D Mario games operate the same way. The sense of flying I got when I put on the wing cap in Mario64 for the first time could not have been done in 2D. Swooping around through rings and snagging coins out of the air while keeping your eye on the precise spot you needed to land was a specifically 3D exercise. Similarly, in Galaxy I've derived a lot of pleasure from the way Mario's acrobatic skills allow you to traverse vertical space, using his backflip, triple jump and walljump abilities to quickly get up to the higher areas of worlds. That doesn't happen on a purely 2D plane because there's no concept of "looking up" to see where you can go; you only see the flat side perspective they give you.
I certainly understand the complaints you make about the weaknesses of the 3D camera, but I think you're really shortchanging the sense of exploration that 3D frequently gives much better than 2D does.
TheHighFive said...
galaxy is for 10 year old kids.
if i was 10 i would think galaxy was an amazing game.
Oh sod off. Go be too cool for great games somewhere else. :-p
Funny thing about the jumping is that if they had really wanted to limit the problem of judging distance (which I NEVER had in Mario 64 or Sunshine) then they did exactly the wrong thing. Not only does Mario generally jump shorter, but because the camera is directly overhead the only cue that you have as to whether or not you are high enough to land on the enemy is when you either get hit or don't. It also makes it exceptionally difficult to jump onto enemies when they're stunned so that you end up kicking them for star bits instead of crushing them for coins.
Super Mario Galaxy is easily the most overrated game of the year, if not the decade, and if the whole point of going into space was to fix the imagined problems with the 3D perspective it is also one of the biggest failures in video game history.
*Huge eyeroll* Yes, hpv, an overrated failure - I'm sure that's how it will be remembered.
I haven't had any of the elevation issues you mention at all, and think the camera handles the action better than any 3D platformer's camera I can think of, especially given the demands placed on it. As for the judging distance thing, I also never had a problem with it in previous 3D Marios and still don't in Galaxy.
I would say, however, that "the whole point of going into space" was to do something genuinely new with the Mario formula. Playing with gravity the way Galaxy does is something no other 3D platformer I'm aware of has tried, and the things I'm asked to do in Galaxy feel different than the things I've done before. Things - to again return to the original post we're commenting on - which would not have worked in 2D.
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